What if the reason your habits aren’t sticking isn’t you, but the method itself?
In Part 2 of this illuminating conversation on the ANEW Insight Podcast, Dr. Supatra Tovar continues her talk with progress coach, podcaster, and recovering perfectionist Monica Packer. If Part 1 explored the deep emotional roots of perfectionism, Part 2 offers the practical tools women need to break free from unrealistic standards and create sustainable, life-affirming habits.
From reimagining resolutions to redefining what consistency really means, this episode is a roadmap for any woman feeling burnt out by “shoulds,” invisible labor, and the pressure to be everything for everyone.
1. What Is the Do Something List and Why Does It Matters More Than Goals
Monica introduces her transformative “Do Something List” (DSL), a tool for daily fulfillment—not achievement. Unlike traditional goals or New Year’s resolutions, the DSL is not about checking off tasks or proving your worth. It’s about exploring who you are, what excites you, and what’s been buried under years of self-neglect.
“It’s not a bucket list. It’s not about achievement. It’s about you.”
Monica has never completed a DSL in its entirety and that’s the point. The purpose isn’t perfection, it’s presence.
2. Why Resolutions Fail (and What to Do Instead)
Monica and Dr. Tovar dive into the psychology behind failed resolutions. Whether it’s “lose 30 pounds” or “organize the entire house,” resolutions often stem from perfectionism, are rooted in shame, and rely on impossible standards. They’re usually disconnected from real life and therefore unsustainable.
Dr. Tovar notes how these lofty goals mirror all-or-nothing thinking, which is hardwired into diet culture and productivity culture alike.
Instead? Start small. Start now. Start with curiosity not pressure.
3. Introducing Sticky Habits and the Power of the Baseline
Monica’s concept of “Sticky Habits” flips the traditional script. Most habit formation models especially those written by men don’t account for the lived realities of women: fluctuating schedules, caregiving demands, emotional labor, and limited time.
So how can habits stick?
By redefining consistency. Monica explains that consistency is “doing your best, most of the time, over time.” That best might change daily, and that’s okay.
To build habits that last, Monica encourages women to define a “baseline” the smallest, simplest version of a habit they can do even on their worst day.
“If you want the ideal version, the only way to get there is to start with the baseline.”
Whether it’s a 2-minute meditation or journaling one sentence a day, the goal is sustainability not grandiosity.
4. The Invisible Labor Women Carry and Why It Breaks Habits
A powerful segment of the episode addresses a critical issue: invisible labor. From planning the family schedule to organizing work parties, women often carry the unspoken mental load of a household even when they’re also working full-time jobs.
Monica points to research showing that American women perform 4.5 hours of domestic labor a day versus 2 hours for men—and in other countries, the gap is even wider.
This mental load sabotages traditional habit formation. Women aren’t failing at habits because they lack discipline; they’re failing because they’re exhausted.
“If more women were on their own list, the world would change.”
5. Flexible Habit Formation: A New Way Forward
Monica’s solution is “flexible habit formation.” It doesn’t demand rigid routines or guilt-based motivation. Instead, it honors women’s reality less time, less energy, less support and builds around it.
Key tools she introduces:
- Baselines: Start small and scale up as life allows.
- WTA Method (When, Then, After):
- When you do an existing habit (e.g., waking up),
- Then you do your new habit (e.g., 2-minute mantra),
- After, you affirm yourself with something rewarding (like making your favorite coffee).
- Positive Reinforcement: Noticing and celebrating even small efforts helps solidify the habit neurologically and emotionally.
Dr. Tovar adds that tying new habits to consistent cues (like waking up) and rewarding them with something enjoyable (like a morning latte) helps anchor the behavior, even on hectic days.
6. Rewriting the Narrative: From Martyrdom to CEO of the Household
The conversation closes with a broader call to action: shift the cultural and familial expectations around women’s roles.
Dr. Tovar reflects on how women have been conditioned for generations to carry the burden silently. It’s time to change that—not only by forming better habits, but also by having honest conversations with partners and children about sharing the load.
“We don’t need to be martyrs. We need to be CEOs of our homes.”
Monica echoes this with hope and realism: true systemic change will take time, but change can begin within—by claiming your time, honoring your needs, and committing to self-care as a daily act of resistance.
Why This Episode Matters
This episode is a love letter to women who are doing too much and blaming themselves for not doing enough.
It’s also a toolkit.
Whether you’re struggling to form healthy habits, feeling the weight of invisible labor, or constantly putting yourself last—this conversation offers a gentler, smarter way forward.
Monica’s approach reminds us: You are not lazy. You are not broken. You’ve just been playing by the wrong rules.
Now it’s time to write your own.
🎧 Listen to Part 2 of Monica Packer’s Interview on the ANEW Insight Podcast
📺 Watch the full episode on YouTube: @my.anew.insight
🌐 Stream it at: anew-insight.com under the ANEW Insight Podcast tab
📘 Learn more about perfectionism and burnout recovery in Dr. Tovar’s award-winning book: Deprogram Diet Culture
💻 Enroll in the self-paced ANEW Insight course at: anew-insight.com
Tags: flexible habits, sticky habits, invisible labor, do something list, perfectionism recovery, self-worth, women’s mental health, self-care tips, progress over perfection, Monica Packer podcast, ANEW Insight Podcast, habit formation, baseline habits, burnout recovery, gender equity, mental load, WTA method, habit stacking, emotional wellness, Dr. Supatra Tovar, productivity myths, balance for women, podcast for women, self-leadership
View here full podcast Transcript here:
Dr. Supatra Tovar: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the ANEW Insight podcast. We are back for the second half of our interview with progress coach, podcaster and self proclaimed recovering perfectionist, Monica Packer. Monica gave us invaluable insight into her inspiration to recover from perfectionism and embrace balance. I cannot wait to pick her brain some more.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Thank you so much for coming back, Monica.
Monica Packer: I’m so happy to be here. Thank you.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Thank you. So when we left off, we had talked about the nature of perfectionism and then the development for you in terms of being in the middle ground of starting a Do Something List. And I think that there is so much value. In a Do Something List, but I think really clearly define that for our listeners so that they can then be inspired to make their [00:01:00] own.
Monica Packer: Mm-hmm A Do Something List and in our community, we call the DSL for short is a way to prioritize daily fulfillment in your life. It’s how you explore who you are by uncovering parts of yourself that have been long ignored or swept away, and exploring new parts of yourself that you’ve also wanted to do, but have been on the back burner or brushed away, and you know, it’s really, not a, a bucket list. Like it’s not like kiss a stranger on the top of the Eiffel tower kind of list. Although those are fun.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: That sounds fun.
Monica Packer: it’s, yeah, yeah. It sounds fun. I’m sure my husband would disagree. Um,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Same.
Monica Packer: uh, but it’s also not a goals or a resolutions list. And that’s really important.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes.
Monica Packer: Whenever I teach this, um, and we do have a free training. So we’ll make sure we share that at the end. One thing I like to really emphasize is the whole point is that exploration piece. [00:02:00] I have never completed a list and now nine plus years of making mine. It’s never been about the completion. It’s not about markers of achievement. It’s about you. Um, and my first list was made because I was not in a place where I was ready to make goals or resolutions that had been, um, a part of my life that I didn’t feel like I could do because I had such perfectionistic standards about them in the past. I hadn’t made goals and resolutions in years, but I still needed a push. I still needed a push to put myself on my own list of responsibilities. I needed a way to make sure that I was. Feeling like myself more regularly, that I had time for my own interests and hobbies or things I was curious about, but to do so in a way that was fun instead of pressure filled.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: [00:03:00] Yes, so give us a little bit more of a picture about New Year’s resolutions. This is something I talk about a lot. Why do they always tend to fail?
Monica Packer: Oh my goodness. This is another thing, like I came along the way with a Do Something List. Gradually I started getting back into goal making and I think that, I think it’s okay to have resolutions in terms of like. If you need a word of the year a feeling to aspire to, I think people can put that in the resolutions bucket list and, and that are the bucket and that totally worked for them, but in most cases, it seems like resolutions are kind of like these shots in the dark,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yeah.
Monica Packer: Like that you don’t really have a target to land on either. They’re so broad or they’re like so hyper achievement-based
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm hmm.
Monica Packer: not planted in reality that you get put in a position of [00:04:00] expending so much effort and so soon that you you pay a price, and that price could be your mental health, it could be your relationships, or you pay the price of failing at achieving it. Um, so, you know, that can be a tricky relationship for a lot of people. If it’s working for them, then I say it’s working for them. I think for most people, it doesn’t, it doesn’t, seem to work that well
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes. I think that it’s the same kind of principle as all or nothing thinking
Monica Packer: Mm hmm.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: you. They’re very broad.
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: they’re not necessarily very specific. Um, and they’re very difficult to sustain.
Monica Packer: Yes.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Especially if you’re trying to create a new habit. A lot of people have their resolution, like, I want to lose 30 pounds.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: I want to climb Mount Everest. I want to quit smoking.
Monica Packer: I want to organize my whole house. I’ve, I’ve heard that one a lot too,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Exactly.
Monica Packer: I
Dr. Supatra Tovar: mean, yeah, we all get
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: My husband especially gets it from me. He would really like me to have [00:05:00] that be a resolution. But, uh, you know, they don’t have a specific path
Monica Packer: mm
Dr. Supatra Tovar: toward the achievement of them, and they’re often so broad, um, and just so based in that, uh, idea of perfectionism that, uh, people then tend to give up on them, you know, by February.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: So, I think, uh, you know, what I emphasize in my practice are tiny habits. You have Sticky Habits.
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: I really love that name. So give us a picture of how something from the Do Something List can be achieved, maybe through using Sticky Habits.
Monica Packer: Mm. like this connection. Um, and it’s interesting because prioritizing time to have a hobby, to have an interest, to explore. Even something like sourdough totally saved me in 2023. That was the
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Uh, yep.
Monica Packer: Do Something List. We, we tend to find different things for [00:06:00] different years. Save us. And that was the thing on my do something list that saved me for 2023. We tend to not think, oh, that’s just something you do, but oftentimes, in order for us to have that time, we need to have, uh, it either be a habit in our lives, like, like a commitment and something that happens regularly, or we need to have other supportive habits that give us the time and energy we need
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm-hmm
Monica Packer: to have time and energy for those other things. Um, Habit formation for me is one of the trickiest things out there because we think we all know what it takes. It’s another one of those through osmosis. We just know, like we just know magically, like in order to form a habit you have the habit for 28 days. And if you do that habit the same way in the same day, time of day, and day after day, then you’ll get the habit. we all think we know what it looks like to have the exercise habit, like we can all rattle off like the minimum, Oh, three days a week of 30 minutes of this. Like we know, we know, we [00:07:00] all think we know what it means to be a meditator or to, to practice yoga to be a journaler, uh, to be a day planner, a meal planner.
Monica Packer: Like we all know, we think. Right. We think we know what it looks like because these are so mold based and they’re so perfectionistic driven that really what we’re missing is that it sets us up to fail just like those resolutions you talked about. Um, and one other factor of why I forgot to say resolutions tend to not work is because they are so should based.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes. Mm-hmm
Monica Packer: It’s not about aspiring to be yourself. It’s about aspiring to be who you think you’re supposed to be. Okay. And that doesn’t, and it doesn’t work. And that’s why the do something list can help you to explore who are you. So then you then know what goals you need to work on and what habits you actually want to prioritize. The way I want to change how we do habits is particularly so for women. And I know there may be some men listening and. This may apply to [00:08:00] them as they’re listening. So just listen with an open heart if that’s, if that’s you, for women in general, I, I found myself in both of them when I was working with for years is that we kept failing at these habit methods. And these were like the most up to date methods. Um, some elements could work for some women, but most of the women I was working with were failing and we had to really take a look at not them because I knew them really well by then. I’m all, you know, I’m a progress coach and I’ve coached them for over seven years now on their habits, identity and fulfillment. I knew these women well, I knew they were not lazy. Okay. I knew they were smart. I knew they were capable. I had seen the great growth they had made and the work they put into doing so. So I had to instead look at the methods we were using. And one of the big things I discovered is that all the methods we were learning from were written by men. And I don’t, I don’t discount them just because of that. But what we have to see is that they were simply [00:09:00] missing information. And the information is that women’s lives are different than men’s lives. And this is science backed. This is not anecdotal. The big overarching reason that I like to teach about is invisible labor. A lot of us are more familiar with the mental load, right? That’s one of the parts of invisible labor. labor is the often unseen, undervalued, and underpaid, if paid at all, task that, people perform that help keep households and communities and workplaces afloat that last piece, I always like to say, who plans your work parties?
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes.
Monica Packer: Okay. These are the things that by a big majority, women carry way more than men. Men do carry the invisible load too. In the United States, women spend four and a half hours a day on house and family management and men spend two. This is way better than a lot of [00:10:00] places. for example, it’s six hours to one hour.
Monica Packer: So
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Wow.
Monica Packer: women and one hour per men. So, This is a worldwide issue. It transcends politics. transcends religion. It transcends culture. Um, it’s, it’s relevant for every woman’s life that whether they’re working or not, whether they have children or not. Um, and that’s why it, it, it hit me so clearly clearly because again, since I knew the women I was working with, I’m like, what is the common denominator here? And it really was just that they were women because they were so broad. I had a retiring grandma struggle just as much as I did a single working woman who was climbing the corporate ladder
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Hmm.
Monica Packer: and a stay at home mom, you know, of many little kids, like it was across the board. So, what we had to do is form a new way of uh, create a new method for women to form habits specifically and not throwing the baby out with bath water with all the other methods written by men, because there were incredible elements, [00:11:00] such as small habits, such as habit stacking that we could use, but how to look at habits in a different way and how to form them in a different way so that our habits actually stick
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes.
Monica Packer: and they meet the, how our lives look different, which if I were to put in just a few words, we have less energy. Again, this is science backed. We have less energy. We have less time. We have less dependability in our schedules and we have less support. So that’s how we have to form habits is with those things in mind, not against them, not pretending they don’t exist and that it all comes down to just gritting your teeth and doing something. There are obstacles we have and we have to work with them, not against them.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: So how, how then do you create a sticky habit?
Monica Packer: Mm hmm. I mean, I could teach you this for six hours. So let me give you like a couple minute version of this. one way we could frame this is flexible habit formation. Now, I think a lot of people, when they hear flexible and habit, they think those things seem [00:12:00] opposite. And because they can’t do the exact habit in the exact same way at the exact same time, not only think they don’t have the habit, they stop trying again, you know, or they have to, it’s just that sheer effort requires a cost. So instead, what we need to do is change the way we see consistency. Consistency is doing your best most of the time over time. So our habits still live and die by consistency, but not the rigid perfection model of consistency we have. Doing your best is allowed to change season to season, even day to day. Your best will look different. So I’ll explain how that looks on the habit in a moment. And also the, I, the goal is for consistency is more times than not. If you’re doing something more times than not, then you do have a habit. Now, the way we get around the micro way of forming a habit, that’s flexible is something I call a baseline. [00:13:00] A lot of us start with the ideals, the ideal version of the habit we want. Like, Hey, it’s Monday. That means I am now going to exercise. And even if their ideal seems reasonable, like I’m just going to go for a 30 minute walk. Like they’re not like, I’m going to do a bootcamp one hour every day, six days a week.
Monica Packer: We need to have a baseline version, and this is the smallest and simplest version of your ideal habit. It’s the version that you can do on your worst of day,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes.
Monica Packer: When a kid throws up, when your period starts, or when you’re in baseball season, or there’s a big work thing going on, if you have to plan that darn work party. I’m not saying you have to, just saying it. Um, And that version is what allows you the flexibility you need to be consistent.
Monica Packer: And when women specifically, cause again, I, I teach women. So I apologize if this is like a man listening, this can apply to you too. When women first hear about the baseline, they’re like, but that’s not what I want. I’m like, I know if you [00:14:00] want the ideal though, this is the way you’re going to get there.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Um,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: . You know, what I was thinking about while you were talking is that this is a, this is conditioning that we’re experiencing. Our parents. grew up with this mentality and they got it from their parents and their parents and their parents and it’s been passed down especially when you are talking about the expectations of the invisible workload that women often carry.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: This has been an expectation for so many years and so to decondition ourselves from this, I think that this is a very manageable pathway to that .Really kind of creating these flexible goals. And I completely agree that doing, making your frequency and duration as small as possible is the pathway towards it being the most [00:15:00] sustainable way.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: I think it’s also really important that, you know, if you do want a, say, a consistent habit, that you attach it to something that you do regularly. Um, you know, whether that’s just, I wake up and I meditate the waking up part. Hopefully everybody wakes up in the morning. Come on guys, please That can be your cue.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Okay, I’ve woken up. This is the perfect time for me to meditate I don’t need to do I don’t have time to do this for a very long two minutes Two minutes, I love mantras, so I’m going to say a mantra for two minutes and then start my day. But also making sure that you give yourself some level of positive reinforcement after you’ve, you know, done this behavior helps it persist just by feeling good, just by go making yourself your most favorite latte or whatever it is that like, you know, feels good to you is going to help keep the habit
Dr. Supatra Tovar: you know, forming. And [00:16:00] I think when you can fall back on something as tiny as two minutes, that’s doable. And so most people can do it on most days, but you can also give yourself the grace when you don’t have even that moment. And then if you have more time, great, it’s bonus, bonus meditation time. Hooray.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: So I love that. And so that leads me into, I think, a really important uh, question that I hadn’t planned on asking, asking you, but how do we rewrite this narrative for women especially? How do we make this mental load, invisible load 50 50? How can we do this now and what can we teach children moving forward so that the paradigm shifts?
Monica Packer: I’m actually going to recommend a future podcast guest you should have. And
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes.
Monica Packer: It’s Eve Brodsky. She’s written the book Fair Play. Um, she’s done [00:17:00] a ton of research in this area. It’s an incredible book. Um, there are so many like her though, who have studied this and wrote about it and have many ideas. I mean, obviously bigger things need to happen. Like, and I’m talking culturally, socially, uh, politically, like there are things that need to happen that way. And that’s when it can feel so defeating because it’s like, we are just working against a system that will never change.
Monica Packer: So when I’m teaching women about forming habits, and by the way, I so love that you shared about the habit stacking.
Monica Packer: That’s really important too. Habits are there to make you feel like yourself. Okay. So one of the most revolutionary things you can do is form habits that are just about you and taking care of you. Okay. So that’s one, that’s one of the ways we can change it. I truly believe that if women, if, if more women were on their own list, the world would change. I really believe [00:18:00] that. So that’s one. The second thing has to do with. You talked about you have to affirm the behavior. You have to have that positive reinforcement at the end. So the model I made for that is WTA.
Monica Packer: It’s when, then, and after. So when you already have an existing habit, when I get up, I meditate. That’s your new habit. And then after, I affirm it in myself. I tell myself good job, right? That’s all with this behavior design in mind. You know, what is crazy though, as, as women learn to form new habits, they don’t just change the way they see habits.
Monica Packer: They change the way they see themselves. Okay. I told you about how women often have broken down in tears when they learn I’m not lazy. I’m a perfectionist. I have seen women dramatically change the way they see themselves because they now have a habit that sticks. And when we change the way we see ourselves, we also change what we know we are capable of and we can, we’re able to do more. But the things that actually matter. Not [00:19:00] just the things we’re supposed to do. Okay. Um, so yeah, bigger things need to change, but we have to start right here. We have to start with what we can control. And those are two big things we can start with.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Oh, my goodness, yes, and I, I am always talking about self care, always talking about it. And I think it is vital.
Monica Packer: And
Dr. Supatra Tovar: And we are,
Monica Packer: bubble bath variety, which that matters too, but it’s so much more basic than people think self care.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes, yes, it is about making sure that this vessel is able to care for others.
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: we are conditioned to think that we have to put ourselves last. And I know so.
Monica Packer: Yes.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: many women who do this and at their peril, especially at the peril of their health, of their, their mental health, of their well being that. And I think it is so important to embrace that self care is not selfish.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: [00:20:00] That just means that you are putting all of your health and your wellness first, so that then you can teach it to others or impart it upon others. And I think that that is absolutely vital. And I think more, more and more women, especially are embracing this. I also think, and this is probably the topic of a much longer podcast, but I think that communication is everything.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: We have all of these unspoken expectations of women. You know, you’re gonna now, especially you’re gonna, you know, get fully educated and have a career, but you also have to have children and you have to be the perfect wife and all you have to do all of this stuff and you’re still expected in society to do the same amount you were doing at home on top of having to go to work.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: It is completely unfair. And that is what needs to be vocalized to your partner, to [00:21:00] whoever you’re dealing with, that this is a team effort. And if you can pull the team together, including children, how do we make this whole family healthier, better, you know, more functional? Gathering everybody’s assistance.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: So rather than the female being the, you know, uh, the, the doer of everything, I think it’s so important because women are naturally good communicators to become more of a CEO type of person in their house where they’re calling together everybody and calling upon everyone to contribute. And that helps teach younger generations that that
Dr. Supatra Tovar: should be what’s expected in a partnership, as opposed to this unequal distribution of labor, wearing [00:22:00] down of the martyr mother and, you know, carrying that forward in the future. We don’t need to be a part of that paradigm anymore. I really do think that men are on board with being equal partners. But we just need to communicate with them and get everybody on board and not be subject to this old stereotype that isn’t serving anyone anymore.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Oh, Monica, there’s so many questions I still have for you, but we’re out of time. Uh, but I really want to know, you know, A, what’s in the future for you?
Monica Packer: Sure.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: If you have anything fun, interesting, neat coming up, and how can people work with you? Because I’m sure after listening to this, they’re just going to be drawn to you.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: So point them in the right direction.
Monica Packer: Thanks for the opportunity to do that. I’m actually writing a book right now called Happy Habits, um, about this topic. [00:23:00] I’m in the, I’m like, neck deep in the why women need to do habits differently. And I’m like, I don’t know if this is the book that they will have signed up for, but we’ll see.
Monica Packer: Um, and I would also recommend the Do Something List Training. It’s free just at aboutprogress.com/DSL.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Wonderful, you are really, truly a joy and I resonate so much with your journey. I think all women resonate with this journey. I think that it’s really time for us to rewrite this narrative
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: that, you know, and, and, and I don’t want to, you know, disclude men. I think men also have a lot of pressures.
Monica Packer: from
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yeah.
Monica Packer: They do.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: And they have a lot of pressures that, you know, are similar, but some are different than ours. And if we can start to embrace the middle ground,
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: I think that that will lead to so much more flexibility, [00:24:00] so much more ease, um, so much better mental health. So what you’re doing out there is really, really important, and I’m just so glad to have been connected with you.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: And I hope that we can have more conversations in the future. I know that we do have one coming up, and I’m excited about that. But I’d love to have you back on to maybe explore some of these topics that we didn’t get to today.
Monica Packer: Yeah. It seems like the disparity of the home labor would be a good one.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Oh,
Monica Packer: Yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes please. That would be amazing. Please. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Monica.
Monica Packer: you. Thanks for having me.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: And thank you for joining us on the ANEW Insight podcast. We look forward to our next exciting interview and we really hope you join us next time.
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