For many high-achieving, purpose-driven people, burnout doesn’t happen because they don’t care. It happens because they care deeply.
In Part One of the ANEW Insight Podcast conversation, Dr. Supatra Tovar sits down with body-based healing practitioner and expressive arts therapy expert Cathy Williams to explore how trauma, stress, and depression are often stored in the body – and why healing sometimes requires more than just talking.
Cathy’s journey into somatic and expressive arts therapy began not as a career move, but as a personal reckoning.
The Hidden Cost of “Go, Go, Go”
Before becoming the founder of Intuitive Self, Cathy spent years immersed in demanding overseas community development work. On the surface, she was ambitious, productive, and devoted to meaningful causes.
But underneath the constant motion was something else.
When she finally slowed down after returning home, she was forced to confront what the busyness had been masking: exhaustion, disorientation, and unprocessed emotional pain.
Like many high performers, she had equated value with productivity. Staying busy wasn’t just about ambition – it was a coping mechanism. Movement without pause prevented her from feeling what her body had been holding for years.
This is a common pattern:
- We soldier on.
- We suppress.
- We achieve.
- We don’t process.
Until the body insists.
The Body Keeps the Story
One of the most powerful themes in this conversation is the somatic truth that the body carries our experiences – especially the ones we didn’t have space to feel.
Unprocessed emotions don’t disappear.
They get stored.
They show up as:
- Chronic muscle tension
- Shallow breathing
- Collapsed posture
- Nervous system dysregulation
- Fatigue and burnout
- Emotional reactivity or numbness
As Cathy explains, when we disconnect from our bodies – whether through overworking, dissociation, or constant distraction – we lose access to vital internal feedback.
And when we fear that “if I stop, I’ll fall apart,” we stay in motion to avoid overwhelm.
But real healing begins when we pause and get curious.
Why Talk Therapy Isn’t Always Enough
Talk therapy is powerful – naming experiences and making meaning through language matters.
But trauma and stress are not stored only in thoughts – they’re stored in the nervous system.
Cathy describes somatic movement therapy and expressive arts as complementary to traditional therapy because they:
- Include the whole body in assessment and healing
- Bypass over-analysis
- Access implicit memory and emotional residue
Allow expression without needing perfect words
Many clients instinctively try to analyze their way out of pain. They want to problem-solve immediately.
But healing often requires feeling before fixing.
When clients are invited to move, breathe, notice, and express without judgment, something shifts. The nervous system begins to soften. Shoulders drop. Breath deepens. The body relaxes.
That softening is not small. It’s a regulation.
The First Step: Rebuilding the Relationship With the Body
Cathy doesn’t begin with dramatic catharsis. She begins with reconnection.
The entry point is simple – yet profound:
- Notice your breath.
- Feel your posture.
- Bring gentle touch to your body.
- Ask what feels supportive.
- Observe without judgment.
For many adults, this is the first time in years they’ve had a conscious conversation with their own body.
This practice helps clients:
- Recognize physical sensations
- Identify emotional cues
- Differentiate between comfort and discomfort
- Discover their “yes” and their “no”
It builds internal safety.
And safety is the foundation for trauma healing.
Movement as Expression, Not Performance
Unlike choreographed dance or directive exercise, Cathy’s approach is invitational.
There’s no right way to move.
Instead, clients explore:
- Big vs. small movements
- High, medium, and low levels
- Fast vs. slow tempo
- Expansive vs. protective shapes
If a gesture repeats, she may invite them to make it bigger. If a posture feels protective, she encourages curiosity rather than correction.
What does this movement want to say?
How does it want to shift?
The goal is not performance – it’s dialogue.
When Creativity Unlocks What Words Cannot
After movement exploration, Cathy often integrates expressive arts – large paper, pastels, colors, shapes.
No artistic skill required.
Clients draw what emerged through movement. Sometimes it’s abstract. Sometimes symbolic. Sometimes surprisingly clear.
A spiral might represent:
- Expansion
- Protection
- A guarded heart
- Growth
- Confusion
- Awakening
The meaning doesn’t come from the therapist.
It comes from the client’s own body wisdom.
This process activates right-brain creativity – something adults often abandon but children use naturally.
We encourage play in children.
We prescribe logic for adults.
But creativity is not childish. It’s neurological access to deeper layers of self.
What Release Looks Like
When stored emotion is expressed somatically, Cathy often sees:
- Breath softening
- Posture opening
- Tears without panic
- Laughter emerging unexpectedly
- A visible reduction in tension
- Increased curiosity
- Playfulness
One surprising pattern she notices is the urge to analyze too quickly. Clients often want to “solve” before they’ve fully felt.
But when they stay with the sensation – without rushing – something integrates.
The nervous system recalibrates.
And what once felt overwhelming becomes manageable.
From Disconnection to Intuition
A core theme of this conversation is intuitive reconnection.
When we live exclusively in our heads:
- We override signals.
- We suppress emotions.
- We disconnect from inner truth.
But when we re-enter the body:
- We hear subtle cues.
- We sense what’s aligned.
- We access embodied wisdom.
Intuition isn’t mystical – it’s embodied awareness.
The more regulated and connected we are to our physical sensations, the clearer our internal guidance becomes.
This is where sustainable healing lives.
Why Play Is Not Optional
One of the most beautiful insights from this episode is the reintroduction of play into adult healing.
Play:
- Activates creativity
- Reduces rigidity
- Signals safety to the nervous system
- Opens new neural pathways
- Encourages flexibility
When adults move playfully, explore colors, experiment with sound – they reconnect to parts of themselves that achievement culture often suppresses.
Healing does not always look serious.
Sometimes it looks like curiosity.
You Don’t Have to Collapse to Heal
Many people fear that if they stop pushing, everything will fall apart.
But Cathy’s work shows the opposite.
When we:
- Pause intentionally
- Listen to the body
- Allow expression
- Create safety internally
We don’t collapse.
We integrate.
Healing doesn’t require abandoning ambition. It requires restoring connection.
From disconnection to embodiment.
From suppression to expression.
From survival to self-trust.
And that shift changes everything.
FAQs
1. How does trauma get stored in the body?
Trauma activates the nervous system. When emotions aren’t processed, the body holds them through muscle tension, posture, breathing patterns, and stress responses. Over time, this can contribute to chronic stress, fatigue, and dysregulation.
2. Is movement therapy a replacement for talk therapy?
Not necessarily. Somatic and expressive therapies often complement talk therapy. They help access experiences that may not be fully reachable through language alone.
3. What if I feel uncomfortable moving or expressing creatively?
That’s common. Many adults feel self-conscious at first. The process is invitational and gradual. The goal is awareness and curiosity – not performance or artistic skill.
Want to Learn More from Cathy Williams ?
For deeper insights into nervous system regulation, emotional resilience, and practical tools for managing stress and burnout, follow Cathy Williams on social media and stay connected with her latest work.
Links:- https://www.instagram.com/intuitiveself , https://www.facebook.com/IntuitiveSelfCathyW , https://www.linkedin.com/in/cathywilliams-intuitiveself/ , https://www.intuitiveself.com.au/
Continue Your Journey
- 🌿 Rebuild body trust and nervous-system regulation inside my step-by-step program: Deprogram Diet Culture course
- 📘 Go deeper on mindset, cravings, and sustainable health: Deprogram Diet Culture book (paperback, Kindle, and audio) find it via the book page on my site
- 🎧 Listen to the full ANEW Insight episode featuring these practices and Dr. Lavretsky’s research
View here the full podcast Transcript:
[00:00:00]
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: Hello and welcome. I am thrilled to have body-based healing practitioner, expressive arts therapy expert and founder of Intuitive Self, Cathy Williams with us today. Cathy, welcome.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: I am very excited to pick her brain about all things, uh, somatic based healing for trauma and the like. I am gonna read a little bit about Cathy before we get started, and then we’ll dive right into our questions. Cathy Williams is a body-based healing practitioner, expressive arts therapy expert, and the founder of Intuitive Self. She supports people in reconnecting with their bodies, creativity and intuition as a [00:01:00] pathway to healing trauma, stress, and depression. She and I are very aligned these, these pathways. Drawing from her own recovery journey, Cathy blends somatic movement therapy, expressive arts, trauma-informed practice, and spiritual reflection to help individuals reclaim their sense of wholeness, and self-trust. She is an award-winning author and speaker with over 17 years of experience in community development and social justice, bringing both compassion and depth to her work. Cathy holds a master of science and extensive training in somatic therapy, expressive arts modalities, and trauma healing. Her work centers on restoring the mind body connection through creative expression, body awareness, and intuitive listening. Cathy, welcome to my podcast.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435:[00:02:00] Yay.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: Yay. Thank you so much for joining me. I, I asked you on the podcast because we are so aligned in so many different ways, a big part of my work with my clients is helping them return to their intuitive self through their intuitive voice.
So I would love to hear what drew you toward this work toward movement, creativity, and somatic approaches as primary healing tools. And how did your personal journey shape the work that you do today?
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: I stumbled into this work after I returned from some overseas projects, and this was many, many moons ago now, but I had been doing back to back projects overseas and had been in a, a way of living where [00:03:00] I was very much in my head, I was very much in the must keep busy, must be go, go, go, do, do, do. And I
put this as a, just a sign that I’m an ambitious woman and was wanting to, you know, make the most of every day. But I realized shortly after returning back to Melbourne, because I was so burnt out and, quite jaded from the field of work that I had been giving myself to so devotedly, was that I had been creating and filling my days in this way as a coping mechanism, as a way of not actually giving myself the time of day to pause and recognize what was happening in my body.
And what my body was communicating with me, [00:04:00] and it was around this time when I came back from overseas and was feeling quite, yeah, was feeling quite lost and at a loss as to what to do now with my career. And I still wanted to work with people and I still wanted to support people and communities and to hear people’s stories and to see how I could be part of that.
But I needed to do it in a way that was much more sustainable. And so it was around this time that I was invited to what essentially was a women’s circle, but the facilitator had just finished her dance movement therapy training and, it was the first space that I experienced movement and creative arts in a therapeutic way where, [00:05:00] you know, we didn’t have to speak or name or identify what was happening within us, but we were able to give that story a different platform to express and
that was when I, yeah, I was really able to, to feel the depths of this, this sense of helplessness that I’d come back with and this sense of real, real exhaustion. And it was kind of this catalyst that I couldn’t, I couldn’t keep showing up to my work in that way. I couldn’t keep living daily in that way.
And when I experienced this, this women’s circle and this workshop and these processes, I was really, uh, it was, it was such a cathartic release for me on that day, but also really showed me the potential of what, of what this work [00:06:00] could do. So I very enthusiastically asked, you know, what? What is this work and how could I
experience more of it. Who did she study with? Where are her mentors? Um, and yeah, committed to researching and enrolling myself into various courses and, um, going into mentorships with different pioneers in the field and did this work for many years as a student, but then was able to start combining my community development and social justice work with these practices until it’s now become a complete staple in my life.
Um, and something that I’m very passionate about.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435:Wow. I am gonna pause for just a second. Sometimes when you lean back, you’re, you’re really, really backlit with the sun. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna cut that, that part out, but if you can just be mindful of that. Uh, I think it’s when you do that.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435:Yeah.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435:just be real careful ’cause it’ll blast out your video.
Okay.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435:Yeah.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435:Okay. So Cathy, oh my goodness. I think certainly there’s a running theme in my latest podcast, uh, but I’ve had so many people on my podcast with very similar, [00:07:00] uh, impetus to do the work that they’re doing. And I think that it comes from, uh, uh, conditioning, particularly people who identify as female, the conditioning that we receive as young children moving up, on having to do and be and have it all. Do you think that that was a part of your burnout? What was, what was really driving your productivity goals and how exactly did that contribute to your burnout?
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: Yeah, I, I’ve thought a lot about this and I, there’s different threads I feel like. There was this really, um, there was this sense that I had to do everything right now and that I, [00:08:00] yeah, I really wanted to achieve a lot and I felt like I had to, had to squish it all into a really short period of time. Um, and I.
I think the, the, the overriding theme, which I didn’t recognize at the time of course, but was that I, when I was still, when I actually stopped in my busy days, I recognized how tired I was and I recognized that there was, there was something that I was ignoring and was purposely filling my days with. Um, and it felt good to be of purpose and to be of devotion and to be supporting community in this way and to feel, um, valued in the work that I did.
And I, [00:09:00] I really needed that. And I feel like from a young age, there was, there were particular events in my childhood. My parents divorced, for example, that I didn’t quite understand or comprehend. And so those feelings had never been given space to be explored and to be expressed. Um. And so I think my way of throwing myself into my work was my way of, of coping and, and also distracting and numbing myself from those inner feelings.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: Yes, yes. I think you know that that is also part of most people, not just people who identify as female.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: Mm-hmm.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: Most people’s conditioning that we have to soldier on.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: Yes.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: We don’t, we are not afforded the luxury of the time to process through things. [00:10:00] It’s better to just, you know, put your head down and keep moving. And when we do that, and you can speak to this, I think especially with what happens in the body when we do that, something significant happens in our bodies when we’re repressing things or we’re not dealing with things, what starts to emerge or what starts to happen in our bodies as a result?
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: I think it’s, you know, one of the things that I always say when it comes to the somatic movement therapy and somatic lens is that, you know, this. Is in this framework, in this way of being, we are including the whole body in our assessment and our treatment.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: Mm-hmm.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435:What we know is that the body carries all of our experiences, it carries all of our stories, and that is carried in the way that we hold [00:11:00] ourselves.
The muscle tension. The movements that we do and what we suppress doesn’t go away. It gets stored and it becomes disease and. This is something that when we get curious about what we’re actually holding in our body and be radically self honest about what we’re experiencing and what the feeling is there and where, where we feel it in the body, we can start to
curiously, explore what’s there to be expressed and give that space to be heard and seen and acknowledged and released and moved. And that has was a really, you know, it was a revelation to me that this could be expressed in a way other than talk therapy. Which I know has absolute value, and I [00:12:00] had been doing it for many years, but I feel that the, the movement therapy side of things really compliments what we, what we say and what we talk about, because we can acknowledge where we’re holding it in the body and give expression to it in a new way.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: Yes. I do think that most people think of therapy as talk therapy. Certainly you have the gamut. You have people who strictly focus on the talk part of therapy. You also have therapists who do a combination of both. That’s definitely in my arena. And then you have the, you know, somatic types of therapies. What uh, or why are movement and expressive arts therapies so powerful in healing trauma, stress, and depression in ways that just talking, can’t you, you mentioned it being stored, you know, trauma or difficulties being [00:13:00] stored in the body. How exactly do you utilize movement to help release that trauma?
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: Yeah, so. One of the things that I always start with is getting people to acknowledge that their inner body, so we can be in a pattern or a in a way of coping where we have disconnected from our bodies for whatever reason. Whether we’re numbing or distracting, or we’ve dissociated from our body as a way of being able to compartmentalize and to live and to still stay functional, and we can get caught up in our heads and create this story that if we stop to feel, and if we were to pause.
Then we would actually be overwhelmed by all of the things we’ve been suppressing and go into a state of collapse, for example. [00:14:00] So what I always tend to start with, depending on what’s presenting and depending on what people have come with, but it is to really foster that relationship with their body.
So to acknowledge that they’re in a body, to bring in some gentle, you know, breath and movement practices so that they can start to be aware of the body that they’re in, acknowledge that body and see what the body wants to say. So for me, this work is really about cultivating that dialogue with self and being able to feel safe in the body to then start to notice how the body is communicating and what the different signals are there.
And I feel like this is a really important way to start because when we’re able to acknowledge the body in this way, we’re also able to acknowledge our feelings and the emotions that are [00:15:00] within us and that are rising at any given time and learn ways that we can not only be compassionate to those parts of ourselves, but we can regulate those emotions and feel capable to handle them and to move through them when they come up during our day and outside of our sessions, obviously.
Um. So that’s sort of the, the entry point of where I start. And what I encourage is this really non-judgmental way of being with self. So when we are exploring different challenges or different themes or whatever is present, whatever has charge for my client at the time in that moment. We are getting curious about where that is in the body.
What are the sensations that they’re aware of? Notice how they’re holding the body and you know, maybe that’s a, that’s, you know, it’s, it’s [00:16:00] in a closed frame because they’re being quite protective and it’s not about changing anything as such, but just getting curious about that and seeing what’s there that wants to be expressed and.
That expression is through, is through sound. It’s through movement, and it’s, it’s not, um, nothing’s choreographed. I’m not directive with this. That prompts a very invitational to listen to the body and see how the body wants to adjust or what are the impulses to move and what’s supportive right here, right now.
And that could be something like bringing in some gentle touch to the body for comfort. It could be shaking the body out if there’s an emotion that wants to be released. Um, it really varies depending on what we’re [00:17:00] working with. But the framework is very invitational and it is giving expression through sound, through the body, and then onto the paper with different creative arts.
So. It’s very explorative, it’s very curious, and it’s very, um, you know, I’m not making meaning of what’s happening. I’m just bringing their attention to different things that I’m observing and noticing. And if there is a particular movement that I see them do a few times, I’m like, okay, let’s repeat that.
Let’s make that bigger. You know, what, what, what does that movement want to say? How does it wanna shift? How does it want to move further. Um, and this can lead to so many different revelations. It could be that there is a particular movement that feels really supportive to ground them. There could be a particular [00:18:00] posture or gesture that when they do that, they’re reminded of their strength.
It could be that they express out onto the page. And they’ll make meaning of the different symbols that came out of their own, of their own drawing and be able to make meaning of that and, and, and see what is it of their experience that has come through in a way that their, their words or their mind couldn’t, couldn’t, um, comprehend.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: I love this, and give me a picture of what you see happening at that release and after that release. I know that when I work with my clients and I help them in a somatic way, I, I can visually see areas of their body relaxing or releasing. What kinds of results do you see [00:19:00] when people are tapping into where trauma or the pain is housed in their body and releasing it?
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: I see. Um. I guess the, the most common thing that I see straight up is, is a, um, an acknowledgement that, that it’s been a really long time since they’ve, since they’ve had that conversation with self and yeah, so it’s, you know, that, that the breathing will, will, will sort of soften and their, their, their body.
Their body will soften actually with, with, with their shoulders, with the tension. They’ll sort of, they’ll loosen up a little bit. Um, I see a lot of the time actually, I see people wanting to go straight into analyzing, so they wanna [00:20:00] go straight to sort of the problem solving side of things. And that is part of our conditioning, right?
That we, we want to bypass the feeling and go straight to, oh, but what does, how do we solve this? How do we, how do we fix the problem sort of instantaneously?
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: Right.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: and what I encourage there more and more is like that, that will come. But, you know, can we give our feelings space to actually be felt here and get curious about that?
I see a lot of, um,
people moving in, in ways that they, you know, sometimes it’s slow to, to unfold. But people are starting to get more comfortable with, with moving. And there there’s a curiosity there [00:21:00] because my prompts are so invitational and you know, we’re, we’re bringing attention to parts of ourselves and ways of moving that we, that isn’t common, isn’t, isn’t part of their every day.
So there’s this real curiosity in how they’re in, how they’re moving, and. Um, a playfulness comes through as well.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Well, I, I love this and I think that you and I are also very aligned in that, we really tried to help our clients return to their own intuition and their body wisdom. I would love to hear how you help clients learn how to listen to their bodies. Again, I have my own particular way, and I would love to gain more insight from your method.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: So the way that I work is really weaving in movement processes and creative arts [00:22:00] therapy. So there’s a real combination here with the work that I do and the, the processes come from seeking ways to connect them deeper with their body. So being aware of their breath, working out ways of somatic touch that feels really supportive and comforting for them.
And bringing their awareness to the different responses that their body is having and listening to that feedback. So we’ll often, you know, I’ll get clients to bring in touch to their body when we first start working together. And not only does that resource them, but it gets their, their senses opening to, what is that feedback?
You know, what, what does feel [00:23:00] comfortable to me? What is uncomfortable to me? Where. Is this, is this touch supportive or is it heightening, for example? And so there’s different inputs that come with this work that then allows them to get a really clear understanding of what is their yes and what is their no, and how do they want to meet themselves in this way.
I bring in a lot of different music and movement prompts to get them familiar and comfortable with expressing themself through the body and through different types of movement. And I use a variety of different creative movement prompts here. So this could be, you know, exploring the room, exploring different levels of high, medium, and low. Different shapes.[00:24:00]
Big, small, playing with tempo and just getting them into a state of playful moving. There’s often prompts that encourage whatever story is inside to start to be expressed through the movement, and then we will. And also maybe that has different visualizations come in as well. If there’s something that has come up in our session that, um, might be a supportive landscape, for example, maybe we’ll go there in our mind’s eye and see what wants to come through in that exploration and always paired with the movement.
I have some creative arts, so. The most accessible one for that is big butcher’s paper or a three paper and playing with [00:25:00] different colors, lines and shapes with pastel. And again, you know, it’s not about being an artist, but it is about continuing the exploration through what’s come through onto the page.
And it’s always quite fascinating debriefing that process just to see how they. How they felt in the expression of it. And then what, what is standing out for them on the piece that they’ve created and. You know, I’ll have my own, in my mind, I’ll be like, Ooh, that’s, that’s very curious there. What they’ve, what they’ve drawn there or what words have come out.
But we can also use the art as a, as a, as a place to explore further. So. We call these sort of keys, so they might be a particular, maybe there’s a [00:26:00] spiral shape that they’ve drawn, and so that has. Being extra curious for them, or, you know, they’re, they’re really drawn to that. I’ll, maybe it’s somewhere where I’m like, oh, can you feel that in your body somewhere?
What does that, what does that shape look like? What does that movement look like? And this is when they’re. Able to explore it or make meaning of it. So maybe that spiral shape was their heart and it’s a, you know, it’s, uh, it’s a movement that is expanding their capacity to be open to relationship. I don’t know, whatever it is, but where.
Bringing out the wisdom from the body that is from their own psyche, from their own body’s dialogue, and then bringing it back into self so that they can create it as a resource or as a, as an entry point for further connection to their body and their [00:27:00] intuition.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: Oh, I love this. It, Something we do as therapists more often with children than we do with adults. And I think it’s so valuable to bring some of what we do with children into the adult arena because you’re tapping into that right brain creativity, the connection to, you know, something greater out side of yourself, the tapping into your intuitive self. We’re so left brain problem solving, oriented, stuck up in our minds as we, you know, get older and we lose that capacity to play.
cathy-williams–she-her-_1_12-11-2025_080435: Yes.
dr–supatra-tovar_5_12-10-2025_130435: I really wanna encourage people to get out of this podcast. Uh, half of episode, we’re out of time for this one, and we’re gonna really delve into this a lot more in this second half. There is something really valuable, really freeing in tapping into our creativity and our [00:28:00] intuition and our joy through just taking the mind offline a little bit and getting into the body and letting the body do more of the talking. We have become, I think, a little bit too conditioned to be up here we’re a little divorced from down here, and if we can bridge that gap. Tap in down here a little bit more. You start to hear intuitively the answers to whatever problem you’re working on, especially the more connected you are to your body. That’s a lot of the work that I do with my clients. So, Cathy, we are ugh, sisters on this. I am so excited to pick your brain a little bit further.
We’re out of time for this half, but will you come back and join me for the second half please? Yes. Alright. Thank you all for joining us. I really hope you tune in next time for the second half of this amazing interview with body based healing practitioner, expressive arts therapy [00:29:00] expert and founder of Intuitive Self, Cathy Williams.
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