Addiction is far more complex than simply “bad habits” or a lack of willpower. In my recent ANEW Insight Podcast interview with licensed clinical psychologist and addiction specialist Dr. Kenneth Skale, we dove deeply into why people develop addictions, the neurobiology behind compulsive behavior, and how early emotional experiences shape the nervous system in ways that make certain individuals more vulnerable.
This blog expands on that conversation and offers clinically grounded insights designed to inform, empower, and destigmatize.
Why Some People Develop Addictions While Others Don’t
Everyone experiments. Not everyone gets hooked.
Dr. Skale identifies three core components that reliably appear across addictions—whether the behavior involves substances, food, pornography, gambling, or compulsive shopping.
- The Addiction Fills an Emotional Role
Addictions almost always begin as solutions.
For someone struggling with loneliness, anxiety, shame, or chronic stress, the substance or behavior becomes a reliable form of self-soothing.
Over time, this relief pathway becomes deeply wired.
Long-term emotional regulation depends on early caregiver attunement. When consistent emotional attunement is absent, individuals grow up feeling unsure whether their full emotional experience is welcome. This becomes fertile ground for coping behaviors that numb or regulate overwhelming internal states.
- The Behavior Causes Functional Impairment
Impairment might show up as:
- worsening mental health
- financial strain
- relationship conflict
- health consequences
- decreased performance at work
This is often the line between a “habit” and a behavioral health disorder.
- Cognitive Dissonance and Avoidance
If someone fears losing the behavior, they often minimize, rationalize, or avoid talking honestly about it.
Dr. Skale notes that this resistance is a major clinical indicator of addiction—it reflects an internal tug-of-war between the part that needs the behavior and the part that knows it’s harming them.
Behavioral Addictions vs. Substance Addictions: What’s the Difference?
A key clinical distinction is physical withdrawal.
Substance Addictions
Heroin, fentanyl, alcohol, methamphetamine, cocaine, benzodiazepines, and opioids create physiological dependence.
Withdrawal can involve:
- tremors
- nausea
- body aches
- panic
- hallucinations
- medical risk (including seizures or cardiac events)
Behavioral Addictions
Compulsive eating, gambling, pornography use, shopping, and gaming do not produce the same physical withdrawal symptoms.
However, people experience intense psychological withdrawal—anxiety, irritability, shame, restlessness, intrusive urges—which can be just as debilitating.
The emotional function is similar across both categories, which is why treatment must address underlying trauma, attachment wounds, and emotional dysregulation—not just behavior substitution.
The Dopamine “Seeking System” and Why Rituals Become Addictive
This is one of the most misunderstood aspects of addiction.
Most people believe addiction is about “dopamine reward,” but Dr. Skale highlights research by neuroscientist Jaak Panksepp, who described the SEEKING System—the brain’s core motivational engine that energizes us to pursue what we desire.
Addiction is not about the reward. It’s about the pursuit.
After the first few encounters with a substance or behavior, dopamine spikes diminish.
The brain no longer responds with novelty.
Instead:
- the anticipation
- the planning
- the ritual
- the build-up
trigger the dopamine surge.
This is why someone with binge-eating disorder may spend hours planning, driving to multiple restaurants, arranging food in a specific way, or performing private rituals before eating.
The process, not the substance, becomes the hook.
How Early Attachment Shapes Addiction Risk
When children grow up with caregivers who are consistently attuned, available, and emotionally responsive, they internalize the belief:
“All parts of me are welcome.”
But when early caregivers respond with frustration, coldness, criticism, or emotional inconsistency, children learn:
“My feelings threaten the bond.”
This creates:
- chronic fear around emotional expression
- repression
- avoidance
- difficulty asking for support
- trouble regulating distress
- shame about legitimate needs
As adults, these individuals withdraw during the moments they most need connection.
And in that isolation, addictions become appealing because they offer predictable relief without interpersonal vulnerability.
Attachment trauma is one of the most powerful predictors of addiction vulnerability—not because the person is weak, but because their nervous system learned early on that emotional safety was conditional.
Why People Aren’t “Ready to Change”—and Why That’s Okay
Clients often defend their addiction because part of them genuinely believes:
- “I need this.”
- “This helps me get through the day.”
- “It’s not that bad.”
- “I could stop if I really wanted to.”
This internal conflict is normal.
Dr. Skale uses the therapeutic relationship to help clients sit with both sides:
- the part that relies on the behavior
- the part that recognizes the consequences
Ambivalence is not resistance—it is the doorway to change.
The Path to Healing: Treating What Lies Beneath
Lasting recovery requires addressing:
- emotional avoidance
- shame
- traumatic memories
- attachment wounds
- nervous system dysregulation
- unmet needs
- distorted self-beliefs
Addiction treatment is not about punishment or moral judgment.
It is about helping individuals feel safe enough—internally and relationally—to reclaim the parts of themselves that were never allowed to exist.
Why This Matters
Addiction is one of the most misunderstood mental health issues. When we recognize that compulsive behaviors arise from unmet emotional needs, neurobiological patterns, and attachment wounds, we reduce stigma and open the door for compassionate, evidence-based care.
If you or someone you love struggles with substance use, compulsive eating, pornography use, gambling, or other addictive behaviors, know that healing is absolutely possible.
Recovery begins with understanding—and with the courage to be honest about what hurts.
Would you like to know more about Dr. Kenneth Skale? Here are his social media channels : https://pasadenahealing.com/kennethskale, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/kenneth-skale-pasadena-ca/209374, https://www.pchtreatment.com/staff/kenneth-skale-psyd, https://www.lacpa.org/index.php?option=com_dailyplanetblog&tag=humanity.
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View here the full podcast Transcript:
Dr. Supatra Tovar: [00:00:00] Hi. Welcome to the ANEW Insight podcast. I am so thrilled and excited to have licensed clinical psychologist and addiction and trauma specialist Dr. Kenneth Skale with me today. Hi Kenneth. How are you?
Dr. Kenneth Skale: I’m doing well. Thank you for having me.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: I have not had much of anything in terms of addiction, in my podcast, and I really wanted to explore this with you today. So I’m so glad you’re here. And I’ll read a little bit about Ken, everybody, and then we’re gonna dive right into all of these questions. Dr. Kenneth Skale is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in addiction, personality disorders, and men’s issues.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: He earned his doctorate from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology in Los Angeles and completed his pre-doctoral internship at Canyon Ridge Psychiatric Hospital. Dr. [00:01:00] Skale has since worked in residential and outpatient settings and completed a two year postdoctoral fellowship in psychodynamic therapy at Rose City Center in Pasadena.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: And I love Rose City. It’s such a wonderful place. Dr. Skale is the founder of Pasadena Healing and also works with the Psychological Care and Healing Center in Pasadena. In addition to his clinical work, Dr. Skale has taught as an adjunct faculty member at Pepperdine University, and previously served as the president of the Los Angeles County Psychological Association.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: And that’s how I met. Dr. Ken. Known for his integrative whole person approach, Dr. Skale blends deep psychological insight with practical tools for recovery, helping clients break free from destructive cycles and build more meaningful connected lives. Dr. Ken, thanks for joining me.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Thank you. That’s quite an intro. Now [00:02:00] I’m pumped. Let’s, let’s do this.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Exactly. Well, I love to start every podcast with a little bit of inspiration. I really am interested in how people have, found their path to what they’re doing today. So what first inspired you to pursue a career in psychology? And then what led you to focus on addiction and personality disorders?
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Oh sure. So like many people in our profession. I was always the person my friends talked to about, whatever was going on in their lives. And so that, that’s been pretty continuous since I was young. But even my own experiences in therapy, beginning at I think eight years old gave me kind of the patient’s view of what talk therapy could do, how it could be helpful, and throughout different periods of my life, it’s made a huge impact on me. And helped me work through some things, and particularly as I was just about to finish high school, I went back for another course [00:03:00] and I had a profound experience that made me switch my major from business to psychology right before undergrad, and I never looked back. So that, that really was my trajectory into the field,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Do you wanna talk about the experience?
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Sure. At the time I was dealing with an aspect of OCD that are these somatic compulsions what was, so, people can probably relate to this portion of it. When you go up in an airplane and you feel the pressure change in your ears, it can be really painful and uncomfortable. a lot of people don’t know that that can happen
Dr. Kenneth Skale: even when you’re not changing elevation or, or pressure, can actually happen as part of a an obsessional element of OCD.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm
Dr. Kenneth Skale: so I would just be going about my life and one side of my ears would begin to feel pressurized and very painful.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: mm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: And it was so annoying ’cause you tried to, drinking water can help you or you just try to kind of [00:04:00] pop your ears somehow. And it was really disruptive. And there was one session I had with my therapist at the time who’s an outstanding clinician, and it was actually an interpretation she made to me. And then it was gone. She connected two things that I was kind of in conflict about internally. And from that moment, it never happened again.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Oh my gosh.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: It blew my mind. And so that, that was the moment where I was driving home. Okay, I’m, I’m no more, no more going into business. I’m going into psych all the way It really did leave a mark on me and it kind of showed me that, that there’s a lot more going on underneath the hood than people realize.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Oh, absolutely. Wow. So then, no, looking back from there, that experience was, profound and I think a really clear example of how our problems, with the way either we’re thinking or with trauma that we’ve gone through, or anything that’s happening kind of on the mental side, can show up in us [00:05:00] physically.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: And I think for so long people tried to think that or say that they were two different things and one didn’t affect the other, but absolutely. This is a clear example of, you know, having something, whatever it was, affect your physical functioning and once that clears, then your functioning improves.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: That’s incredible. Wow. Well, how, how about addiction? What led you toward that, working with personality disorders? You were in the psychiatric hospital setting, so you do see a lot of that. Was that the main reason?
Dr. Kenneth Skale: No, this happened right at the beginning of my training. So a lot of people who wind up in addiction work have struggled with a addiction themselves.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mmm hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: I’m not, that’s not my story, but it, it’s not so much getting into the field of addiction. It’s kind of how I wound up there.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: So in my school when I was going through picking practicum sites, they, our training program only allowed you to apply to certain sites, and it [00:06:00] was to make sure students had a, an equal shot at getting something. And the site that I was allowed, that was the most competitive that I was allowed to apply to was a methadone clinic that also did therapy
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: And so I applied to that, was accepted and spent a year showing up at 5:00 AM with folks who, if, if your listeners have not heard about methadone, it’s an opioid replacement. So instead of going through agonizing withdrawal from opioids like heroin fentanyl, those sorts of things Vicodin, they take this medicine instead every day. That staves off the withdrawal, prevents addictive behavior and, and helps them slowly ease off of the physical dependence. But that means that when they show up at 5:00 AM they are clamoring for their dose. And the way that this clinic was set up was they had to do therapy first. And so at 5:00 AM I was showing up talking to people who were itching to get their medicine. And so not the friendliest environment for my [00:07:00] first practicum, but I fell in love with it ’cause I got to hear and meet some incredible people and, and really get to know the stories behind. The folks who were walking in and, and found themselves in that situation. and I developed a comfort with. That, that kind of situation. And so ever since then, in subsequent practicums internship fellowship in, in practice, whenever an addiction, a folk where someone struggling with addiction would get referred in, they would often get sent to me because of that experience.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: And it just compounded to eventually after I graduated, working at intensive outpatient program for four years starting out as a clinician advancing to program director all focused on addiction work.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Wow, that’s really, I can’t even imagine a practicum starting at 5:00 AM but one in a methadone clinic. Yes. That is like, you know, you, you weren’t just dipping your toes in, you like jumping completely into the deep end, which I’m [00:08:00] sure just helped to hone your skills and really gave you insight, very clear insight into the nature of addiction.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: So, I think a lot of people get. confused. There might be like a blurry line, like I partake in this, but I’m not addicted. How do you define addiction? Not just in terms of substances, but in terms of behavior as well, and how would somebody know if they are actually experiencing an addiction?
Dr. Kenneth Skale: I think there’s three components to that. Everybody tries at least some drugs or alcohol. Obviously everyone has probably gambled at some point in their life. Most people have least tried porn a couple times. Everyone tries just about everything. there a select few for whom it sticks. And this is the first component is it comes to fill an emotional role in their life. So it, whatever it is, if it’s alcohol, if it’s food, [00:09:00] it be, or pornography, it begins to soothe or meet an emotional need. It could be many things, but it that becomes a very well worn groove. And then every day or regularly, it’s something that they’re doing to self-soothe or get through the day. The second piece is impairment. So, I mean, I, I certainly probably would meet the criteria for dependence on coffee shamelessly to admit
Dr. Supatra Tovar: What?
Dr. Supatra Tovar: No.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: don’t think, right. I’m in. Good. So I don’t think that this little guy actually impairs my life very much. yeah, it’s, it’s a cost that’s relatively minor.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: It takes some time. I could be being more productive than walking up to my coffee shop, five minutes to refill halfway through the day, but it’s relatively minor. I would say impairment is the second thing people can get themselves killed, seriously hurt. Really wreck their lives with different sorts of, of compulsive behaviors.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: And so that would be the second piece. third [00:10:00] is, I think it’s you’ll often notice is if someone is engaging in something that they know is not great for them, like say it’s more of a bad habit or something, they could be pretty open about that. They might even joke about it. They’ll be transparent if someone in the back of their mind knows. This is something I don’t want to give up. I don’t really want to take a hard look at it. They will do all sorts of things in conversation to not really look at it clearly, whether that’s minimizing its impact, reporting less than they’re usually using. Even just managing to not think about what it’s doing to them or what they’re losing. That’s a common thing. And so I would say if it’s filling an emotional role in your life and it’s, that’s been sustained over time, it’s causing impairment and you are loathed to take a clear look at that.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: That’s a big red flag,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes. That’s what I see with clients that I’ve treated for substance abuse, pornography, food addiction, that it starts with some need to self-soothe some [00:11:00] need what, what, whatever the, the cause is. A lot of times it’s trauma in their past. It can be anxiety over, you know, just even adulting and just not really feeling like you have
Dr. Supatra Tovar: total control over that or know what you’re doing. A lot of imposter syndrome. So there’s a myriad of reasons I think that people then start to self-soothe and then that becomes the thing that they rely on. The, the, the crutch. That’s what eventually causes the impairment. Then they know that there’s, they should stop.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: And so that’s when the cognitive dissonance comes in. If they’re not ready to stop, they’re going to do whatever it takes to kind of explain it away. Well, I need that break. Or, you know, this is actually good for me. Or, you know, this helps me x, y, z in my life. How do you get people past the cognitive dissonance That is, I think, the most challenging part of it, especially when you kind of look at it on the [00:12:00] motivational interviewing scale when they’re just like, I don’t know if there’s really a problem.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: So how do you do that?
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Anyone who winds up in your office is usually at least ambivalent. torn about it. And so I think you mentioned motivational interviewing. It’s a great frontline way to engage people and it’s not something despite the name, it’s not some real encouragement to change behavior or whatever. It’s a genuine exploration of the conflict within them.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: And I don’t outside of similar rare circumstances, I don’t take a very firm stand on what they opt to do. My curiosity is in helping them feel understood and then helping them reckon with the part of them that really wants to keep doing it cuz it is doing something for them and feels judged for doing it. At the same time, reckoning with the [00:13:00] part of them that knows it causes a problem. Or at least it’s damaging the way that other people view them or it’s damaged their financial situation or their health. And the more you can get someone to sit with both aspects, more often than not, people choose to make a change. Sometimes they don’t.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: But the idea is, over time they’ll eventually be put in so much internal conflict as opposed to hearing from their family members or their primary care physician.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: This is a problem. You need to stop. Then those people take on the role of you should stop and person is left with just the part of them who wants to keep going.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: But if you can
Dr. Kenneth Skale: give that concern back to them and just help them explore both sides, that conflict will usually tip into change.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yeah, that’s what I’ve seen, especially in my work with food addictions, but also in the other areas of addictions. So let’s get into the weeds a [00:14:00] little bit more. Talk about some of the, the different types of addictions you treat and how behavioral addictions like gambling or compulsive eating compared to say, like substance related addictions.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Good question. So first in my practice, since it’s outpatient, primarily treat alcoholism, a lot of weed use some amount of cocaine, and more and more these days, hallucinogens. So like LSD mushrooms. things like that. In my past when I was working at an IOP and in hospital settings, you’d see more methamphetamine and opioids, heroin, fentanyl, um, but not so much in the outpatient.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: I have some people who struggle with that, but they’ve been to rehab and are stabilized and they’re coming to work on the underlying struggles. struggles.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: It’s a great question about what’s the similarity and difference between a behavioral addiction and substance related. The biggest difference is that with a behavioral addiction, for the most part, you [00:15:00] don’t have a physiological withdrawal syndrome. So I mentioned opioids earlier. you can imagine the worst flu you’ve ever had, like say some, some people got COVID pretty bad. Imagine that. But times two. In terms of the nausea, the body aches, the shivering, the sense of panic. That’s what opioid withdrawal is like.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Wow.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: And so it, it, it’s very difficult to just go cold turkey, turkey off of something like fentanyl because you feel like you’re gonna die even though you won’t. There are, there are also certain substances where there is a risk of mortality upon acute withdrawal.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: benzodiazepines, like Xanax, klonopine,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: if you are using those in high amounts over a period of time and then abruptly discontinue, you could have a seizure and actually pass away or suffer some pretty serious neurological, consequences.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: And so for the, that’s the biggest difference is that substance dependence [00:16:00] comes with these sort of built in biological risks. and also I, I mean I, I, I think some substances are more intense than others. No one’s ever that I’m aware of actually passed away from smoking too much weed. acutely you can die from a heroin overdose. You can have a heart attack from way too much cocaine or methamphetamine. and so I think there, there’s an inherent more risky element in that way. The ways that they’re similar though, I think is not discussed enough. Is very important. Are you familiar with a guy named Jaak Panksepp?
Dr. Supatra Tovar: No, I’m not.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: He’s a researcher.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Unfortunately he died a few years ago, but he wrote this remarkable book, about 10 years ago or so called Archeology of Mind.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Huh.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: anyone who’s watching who is in the field of psychology and interested in any sort of and addiction should probably go read that book. It talks about a number of things, the most important of which [00:17:00] is called the Seeking System inside of us. It’s this neurological system that’s below your limbic system in something called your midbrain, it’s literally the capacity to become excited and motivated to go get things. So when you’re hungry, when you’re lonely, when you have, you have an interest in something, that feeling of excitement, like you’re gonna go find out, you’re gonna open a present and see what it is you’re feeling, that motivation to go work hard and earn and achieve The capacity for that feeling is a seeking system at work, and it’s all mediated by dopamine.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Right.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: A lot of what people understand as the do what they call the dopamine reward system is not quite right. There’s this idea out there that let’s say whatever drug it is, let’s say it’s alcohol, that when I go drink, I get a reward of dopamine, and that’s why I do it. That’s only true, maybe the [00:18:00] first or second time, at least to any real, real intense degree. After that it’s actually, it’s some, it’s not a new experience anymore. actually the act of going to get it and doing it. That is rewarding in itself.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: So I’m not sure if you’ve ever experienced this, but there are some times where I want to go get coffee I’ll get in my car, be driving to whatever coffee shop, be thinking about what I want to get, and I’m getting more and more excited as I’m getting there. This is a positive energizing feeling and I get there. I wait in line, I walk into the counter, and I don’t want anything. It’s actually the excitement of going to get,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Wow.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: for a lot of people, especially if they’re in any sort of any sort of addictive pattern, whether it’s food or drugs or otherwise,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Shopping,
Dr. Kenneth Skale: What’s up?
Dr. Supatra Tovar: shopping.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Shopping? Absolutely. The window shopping, you don’t have it yet. You’re just acquiring and seeking. That’s the addictive [00:19:00] component.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: And so I think that underlies substances, food, shopping, gambling, pornography, anything that where you find yourself unable to stop repeating it despite knowledge of negative consequences.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Wow. So let me get this straight. It’s the seeking that releases the dopamine. It’s not necessarily.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Yes.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: the substance or the the behavior.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Right,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Wow.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: The behavior, the, the behavior initially when it’s a new experience provides a huge surge of dopamine. So we remember it, oh, this was a positive experience, but now anytime I’m stressed, my seeking system activates and I feel motivated energized to go towards this thing say even though, even though let’s say getting high might feel good, there is so much excitement and gratification in the ritual as you prep to get high, whether it’s preparing whatever drug making, whatever food, going to the casino, whatever it [00:20:00] is, that whole process is exciting and stimulating in itself. if it was just at the end result, I get something, it would be miserable going to pick up whatever you’re, you’re gonna pick up. But it’s not, the whole thing is exciting and that becomes the addictive process.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Totally. I, I was gonna say, I don’t know if you saw, there’s an a, there, there’s an Apple TV show called Physical. It has Rose Byrne in it. It it’s about, uh, a woman who’s embarking on trying to become like the next eighties fi, you know, uh, aerobic star. And she struggles with bulimia nervosa and it’s so interesting her.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: reward seeking behavior that she embarks on before. She has a binge. She visits like seven different fast food restaurants. Rents a hotel, lays out the food on the bed, gets naked to eat it. It’s just bizarre. But then that, that’s her ritual to do that. So I can imagine that that’s [00:21:00] very similar to what you’re talking about.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: And some of my clients who’ve say, struggled with porn addiction. There is like the whole, there’s a ritual. Before they get set up to do what they’re going to do. That is so fascinating. I really, uh, I, I’m learning a lot. So, hey, distinguishing between a bad habit and a full blown addiction, it has to carry those three parts.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Is there anything else that really, you know, kind of sets it up instead of being a bad habit, as a full-blown addiction?
Dr. Kenneth Skale: A, a big one would be in addition to the three that we talked about, right? Filling, filling an emotional function. I think. A big one would be ability to inability to stop despite negative consequences. So if you have a bad habit and you can kind of talk about it [00:22:00] freely, maybe it’s a guilty pleasure, it’s starting to cause you problems, you can probably stop if you’re unable to.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Now we’re into the territory of this is an addictive behavior, probably because it was filling more of an emotional function than you realized.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: So would you,
Dr. Kenneth Skale: ahead.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: would you say that resolving the addiction really requires resolving, what led them to self-soothe in the first place?
Dr. Kenneth Skale: I would,
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: so I think there, that’s a, that’s a, I think an important question. Maybe one that there, there’s not so much disagreement about now. I think maybe. In the past, different decades ago, there could be a lot more focus on behaviorally controlling addictive behavior. I think now it’s pretty well accepted the field of psychology, in in a any role field you [00:23:00] go to that the underlying emotional issues need work as well.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: yeah.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: I once saw someone give a talk and I thought it was really interesting. And he proposed that the nature of addiction and substance use, it stems from a lack of social connection in some way or another. What do you think about that statement?
Dr. Kenneth Skale: I would say that’s the tip of the iceberg. Can we talk about trauma a little bit?
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes, of course, please. Absolutely. Well, it’s like it’s a big
Dr. Kenneth Skale: podcast. Let’s, let’s talk about
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yeah, and it’s a big part of, of what leads us to addiction, so Absolutely.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Yeah. So one of the types of trauma that’s most implicated in addiction is called attachment trauma.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: So you ask about social relationships. So attachment trauma is during the, the critical process of someone’s very early years, months old. [00:24:00] Up to three years old, even four years old, there’s a very important process of bonding and feeling attuned to by parents, when you have an emotional need and you cry out, or you come to your parents, they’re able to reasonably quickly intuit that need, not perfectly, but reasonably quickly, figure out what that is.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: Respond appropriately help you understand what your feelings are. Regulate yourself. Get you what you need, and you develop an understanding of your own ability to of your own feelings and ability to regulate those feelings. But also you just develop basically a your whole self can feel welcomed. So there’s no part of you that is unacceptable. If your parents are, even if you’re angry, if you’re needy, if you’re a little kid and you’re crying, if your parents can be reasonably open again, every parent gets frustrated. I get frustrated with my kids on occasion. But if you can be reasonably open, that kid learns all of me as welcome. [00:25:00] One of the issues that can happen is when parents are overly frustrated with their kids or respond in a sort of critical cold way when the kid is upset. Or crying or what have you. The kid learns that because of the importance of the bond with the parents, the kid learns this part of me, this feeling I have is a threat to the bond and so I need to do away with this feeling. And that might be through repression or many other you can say defense mechanisms that people use. And so what that means is that as they grow up, they encounter anxiety about their own feelings. ’cause their feelings are a threat to the bond with others. in that way, when you ask about social connection as a, as a cause of addiction or social disconnection rather, i agree with that. But deep down it’s because they don’t feel like all of [00:26:00] them is welcome with others. So when someone’s going through a hard time and actually, or is angry or sad or lonely or humiliated or whatever, and that’s when they need the social connection, most of all, that’s when they would withdraw. That’s when they don’t share it.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: That’s when they appear fine, but are actually suffering internally.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Yes.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: I mean, what is a nonjudgmental, always available, predictable source of support is a substance or whatever else we’re addicted to.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Oh my gosh. Nail on the head. Absolutely. And I do work from an attachment lens as well, and I think it’s so important for all of us to go back and just analyze, just look objectively at our childhood, especially if we are, suffering with an addiction and to see what might have happened. Maybe it’s, maybe it’s even.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Later than three and up, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of breaches that can happen at different times in their lives. Like one of my clients had one when he was an adult, and it was [00:27:00] really traumatic for him and led, to him having difficulties with substances. And so it’s very important, I think, to analyze that and to find ways to achieve safety in
Dr. Supatra Tovar: your own self and your body, and we’re gonna talk about that. And we’re also gonna dive a little bit more and bat back and forth a kind of controversial addiction, I think is food addiction and try to get some, make some sense out of it. In the next half. We’re out of time in this half, but Dr. Ken, you’re amazing and a wealth of information and I am so excited that you joined me for this half and I’m really looking forward to the next half.
Dr. Kenneth Skale: This has been fun. I’m excited for the next half.
Dr. Supatra Tovar: Okay, so thank you all for joining us. Tune in next time for the second half of this amazing interview with clinical psychologist addiction and trauma specialist Dr. Kenneth Skale.
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